Building wealth from the inside out requires us to look beyond the currency of money. In this discussion, Dr. Thomas shares how a healthy relationship with self leads to a better relationship with money. He is emphatic that money without wisdom is a liability as discussed in his book: Black Financial Culture: Building Wealth from the Inside Out
Michael G. Thomas Jr., Ph.D., is an Accredited Financial Counselor (AFC®) and a lecturer at the University of Georgia. His research focuses on financial empathy and self-compassion, data visualization’s effects on financial behavior, and the connection between brain function and money.
Dr. Thomas’s philosophy on effectively interacting with money can be summed up in his Ted Talk: Financial Empathy: Understanding the Story Beneath the Numbers. Utilizing financial empathy as a process for active listening and the creation of client-focused financial recommendations are reflected in two financial literacy and capability programs he helped create: Money Dawgs and Discovering Money Solutions.
Dr. Thomas is also the founder of Modom Solutions – a virtual financial coaching service he has been providing since 2015. He is also the author of Black Financial Culture: Building Wealth from the Inside Out. To learn more, visit his website: www.BlackFinancialCulture.com. Find him on IG here: @ModomSolutions and @BlackFinancialCulture
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Podcast Transcript
Dr. Sev
We are kicking off season four of the podcast. And we have an awesome guest to do the honors of kicking off season four. Today we’re discussing building wealth from the inside out. Isn’t that an intriguing topic, and the sub topic for today is getting real about money. I’m excited to have my special guest, who is Dr. Michael Thomas. He is an empathetic communicator and Financial Thought Leader. He is an accredited financial counselor, and a lecturer at the University of Georgia. His research focuses on things like financial empathy, self compassion, data visualization, effects on financial behavior, and a lot more. And I think that is so intriguing. And I also think this is one of the keys of unlocking the way we interact with money because it’s beyond just the currency is how do we think about money? Why do we make the choices that we make about money? Before I bring Dr. Thomas on, if you want to learn more about his philosophy on effectively interacting with money, I invite you to check out his TED Talk. And it’s titled, financial empathy, understanding the story beneath the numbers. Okay, Dr. Thomas, welcome to the Dr. Money podcast.
Dr. Thomas
Thank you, thank you for having me. Again, like I mentioned to you before, that we’re supposed to do this much sooner, and I dropped the ball. And you’ve shown an incredible amount of grace. So I appreciate you, it’s still wanting to have you on. So thank you,
Dr. Sev
you are very welcome you you have the nuggets that people need. So I had to make room to bring you on for sure. Now, before we get into your book, and all the different goodies that’s in the book, I would love for you to kind of just give a brief synopsis of your research focus, because, again, we talk about financial empathy and self compassion, data vision visualization, and its effect on financial behavior, the connection between the brain function, and let’s give us a brief synopsis before we dive into the book.
Dr. Thomas
Yeah, so my, my current role at the University of Georgia is of a lecture. So it actually isn’t my responsibility to to do research. But I there are still these questions that I have, especially as I work with college students, and thinking about behavioral change, thinking about these conversations of resilience? And is it always resilience, the thing that gets people through? Maybe it’s these other emotional intelligence things that are so incredibly important, maybe it’s just that people are more gentle to themselves than others? Are? That gets you over the top? So is it always grit? Is it gentleness? Is it a combination between the two? And I think that with a lot of conversations that we’re having now, right? It’s kind of been on the grip side? It’s been on the the perseverance side, the resilient side, right? What if it’s something else? What if it’s people who are able to be compassionate to others and compassionate to self, are better able to navigate financial shocks and things that nature, because they don’t internalize it in a way that it becomes them? Right. So I’m interested in considering other forms of internal self talk, and how that influences financial behaviors, persistence towards a financial goal, perceptions about life satisfaction, perceptions, about self, so on and so forth. I think that’s incredibly important. And then also considering this as it relates to how you interact as a couple. Right? You might have one person who’s very hard driving, but hard driving maybe doesn’t work for the other spouse. Right? It could be being able to be gentler and have these conversations that are hard conversations or financial intimacy may matter because that’s a part of their financial love language. And that’s what motivates them. So if it’s just, oh, here’s a budget, we’re cutting all these line items, we’re eating beans and rice or whatever it may be, you can completely demotivate someone who isn’t motivated that way. Some people are motivated, motivated that way. But what I’m getting at is that we can’t just put people in a box, we can consider people on the spectrum. And in doing that, we can actually engage in healthier conversations around money to actually understand what promotes optimal behaviors of myself of somebody that I’m with, or a family member and consider and be a little bit more time For in a way that I engage with them, because I always ask this question, is it about the goal? Or is it about the ego? Yeah, yeah. Right. Because if it’s about the goal, it actually doesn’t matter how we get there, just that we get there. And we have the capacity to engage in compassion and all these different things. If it’s about ego is really not about the goal. It’s about doing it the way that I want to do it, doing it the way that I think that you should do it, right. There’s a good dynamic there, you get where I’m going here. So what I’m getting at is like, how can we get away from those those perceptions, so systems in terms of how we engage with money, and understand that there isn’t a one size fits all approach. But there is something unique to an individual if we empathetically listen and respond compassionately to get to where it is that we need to go. And as it relates to data visualization. And understanding our brain, where we’re really getting at there is the the the nervous system, the amygdala, right autonomic response, which is a flight or fight response. And if I am a coach, for instance, so I’m going to give you I’m going to give you one of my my tools that I use with clients, I have I know that a client is incredibly anxious when it comes to a budget, I modified the budget actually, I don’t even call a budget a budget. I call it a spending plan initially, then I allow for the client to change the label. And that’s something that I referred to in the book, because I want them to use language that motivates them, because it allows for me to speak their language and to understand them. And we’re going to use their language in a way that we navigate this process. So I’m using motivating language one. And what I mean by modifying the spending plan is that we actually split it up. So instead of seeing a sheet full of all these things, and man, I gotta do this to get this intimidating. It’s too much information. Yeah, I do a reverse spending plan, where I create tabs, and we say on day one, we’re only going to work on income. And income is the only thing you see. On day two is the second tab, we’re only gonna look at a handful of housing expenses. That’s the only thing that you see. And the very last tab every time you update that information, it’s actually updating the actual spending plan. So now what we’re doing is we’re taking something that can feel overwhelming, and we’re breaking it down into very small pieces that ultimately develops momentum. What I’ll also do is that when I understand, I’ll ask individuals, are there different items on your spinning plan that that causes you a little bit more stress, right, and then I’ll actually have them write that information down. So once they start working on their spinning plan will actually work with a few items that are very lighthearted, there’s not a whole lot of stress, because what we’re doing is we’re building momentum with the client, and then out in a spur something that is maybe what they rated as a three, right, but they built momentum into three, then I’ll bring it back down to another one, that’s one or two, and then we’ll just gradually move into their stress level. And not just give them all of this information, and completely overwhelm them. And they just don’t do anything at all. Or if they don’t do anything, it’s very unlikely that they’re going to show up to our next session, because they’re gonna feel guilt and shame. And if they don’t show up, we don’t get offered opportunity to let them know that actually, this is a part of the process, right? It is uncomfortable and actually help them develop better internal self talk and understand expectations, and often says we don’t get that opportunity. So then this person is now internalized that they what they already felt was that I’m bad with money. And now that’s entrenched even further after I’ve met with the professional, so there’s no help for me. So I tried, I tried to prevent all that stuff from happening by really intentionally being engaging in an onboarding process. And really what I’m looking for is financial intimacy with my client, and creating a space for vulnerability. Because once we have that, then the tools that I have, it’s just a modification of the tools is not a redoing anything. It’s no different when you go to the gym, and someone says, Well, if your knees if you have issues with your knees, well, there’s a modified version of the exercise that you can do, you can still do it. So what that does is is that when you work with people over enough time, you start to find these things that motivate them and not demotivate them or we stumble into things that demotivate them. But what happens is we allow them the opportunity to experience that with us, and then how to modify it to something that motivates them. So the beauty is that we’re teaching them in terms of talk, we’re modeling what modification looks like, if you’re dealing with stress because of the visualization of a thing. And not just that but how you interact analyzing that thing? Where is that coming from? And then why is it triggering the response? And then generally, how do you respond? Right. And so now we understand this. And now the client is very much aware of it. So my research is data visualization. And then with the wiring of our brain, the synapses, which generally are heuristically formed, meaning that if we have a stimulus, and it triggers us a certain way, we don’t even think about it. We just start eating, right, we just start shopping, we just start doing X, Y, and Z, because that was an adaptive response has been so ingrained, that we just automatically do it. And we don’t even realize that we’re doing it. But yeah, feel good, right? Until it doesn’t feel good.
Dr. Sev
Yeah, so so many gems.
Dr. Thomas
A lot of what I’m interested in is how do we actually move the needle, and even as professionals understanding our role in maybe how a client is feeling, maybe it’s not just the client, maybe we actually haven’t taken the time to really understand the client, to use our capacity to think clearly, as we understand the emotion of someone who is struggling with working through their emotions, to present information, to present data, to provide our service in a way that gets someone to neutral and allows them to calm down and self regulate. So that we can begin to use our prefrontal cortex, it actually takes them step further, some steps further, so that we can engage in sustainable progress, not in momentary progress, that stresses them out. And then they stop doing it after they’ve started for two months, and then they don’t want to do it again. The whole for me, it’s all about sustainability. So understanding data visualization, what’s happening neurologically, when people are presented with cues, especially in our financial services, space, is something that’s intriguing to me. And it’s something that I’m exploring with my college students.
Dr. Sev
Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love what you’re saying, because too many times the coach make the relationship about them. Yes. And what they can accomplish with that client, rather than what is it that that client needs. I’m experiencing that right now with someone in part of a volunteer group that I’m in, and it’s not about you, it’s what is it that the client needs to make that next step to have that transformation. And if as coaches, we can put our egos aside, and work with the client, and allow the client to lead as we’re there to guide, but allow the client to lead the process. It’s not for us to create a timeline for when the client should be at a certain point. Because that feeds our ego, and it makes us feel good, like we’re doing good work, because, you know, I was able to do X X number of clients, and they were able to do XYZ, but sustainable. Yeah, because it’s getting them through the door. But is it a sustainable transformation? Or is it a sustainable process that you’ve created with the client, and I’m going to use
Dr. Thomas
some language here that is just going to be very this time period specific, but I got a quote, Deion Sanders, because Deion Sanders is everywhere, right now to dues. But what happens is that when it’s about the ego, especially if you are the client service provider, when a client doesn’t respond, it becomes personal. Because it’s almost like it’s a rejection of you, because you are too tethered to this process. And if something doesn’t work, sometimes if it’s about ego, then it’s Well, I don’t understand why that wouldn’t work. So you wouldn’t even know how to step back and see self in the situation, to make the adjustments for the client. Because it’s not about the client. It’s about feeding your ego in terms of somebody doing well. But it’s really about you and a satisfaction that you’re getting out of it. And I call that a pseudo empathetic response. It’s this idea of leading with empathy, but then pulling people into my orbit, instead of still existing in their orbit and doing genuinely, in the spirit of things that ultimately is always going to be in the best interest of the client. But it’s very difficult to do that. If you’re ego driven. And I have. So usually, if I’m making a recommendation to a service provider, before I ever have a client call, I’m going to call first. And I’m going to act like I’m my client. And I’m going to provide information and details. I want to see how they treat me. I want to I want to I want to hear how they talk to me. I want to hear if I’m going through a phone maze. I want to hear right and there have been several instances where I’ve literally reached out to organizations before I recommended them to clients. I said no not recommend my clients here. Because if somebody is going to talk down to me, man, as if I am like some person that has no value, and you’re this person who’s in control in power, and I need to listen to you, and I’m just calling just to get information, asking questions, and you don’t really want to answer my questions, I’m not going to recommend my client to that service. I’m not. And if I know somebody there, I’m going to let a superior know that this was my experience, and how do we how can we effectively serve our community? If we’re not prioritizing relationship? It’s just it’s just not going to happen? And so yeah, I was Yeah, I actually,
Dr. Sev
I actually called it an organization. This was not my focus, like you know what you’re doing, which is great, because then you’re really making sure your client gets what they want to know. And I actually call it an organization. And the way the woman It was a credit organization, because I’m interested in credit and all of that. So I wanted to see if there was a way for me to volunteer with them. And we responded, I was just flabbergasted. And I’m thinking, is this the way you talk to clients when they call? Yes, yes. Now, when I have clients who would want to work with an organization like that, I’m going to steer them away from them. Because we our clients are already hearing all the voices, and hearing all the messaging, you’re not good with money, you make bad decisions, You’re horrible. You’re all these negative things. And we don’t need to push them into organizations that are going to pile on top of them. That’s one of the reasons why there are certain financial gurus that it bothers me when it if that’s the case, we all are stupid, because we all make bad financial decision.
Dr. Thomas
I don’t think it’s difficult. Doctors have to treat people with dignity. Yes. And that’s really what we’re getting at. It’s the spirit of dignity. And if someone is who’s lived a good bit of my life up to this point in time, even though I still have a few years ahead of me, what I’m always reminded of, is that I’ve been up and I’ve been down, and I’ve been up, and I’ve been down, and I’ve been up. And life, life can definitely be a rollercoaster ride and a lot of different ways. And just understanding how precious and fragile and how unexpected leave, things can arise. And understanding that is uniquely a human experience. I don’t I don’t understand why it’s so difficult. Just to treat people with dignity just for the humanity of the person. And, and actually, that’s, that’s, that’s why I decided to become an accredited financial counselor with a fcpe. Because I believe that my service to people the greatest service that I can provide, it’s not financial, it’s dignity. It’s Hello, Mister so and so Hello, Mrs. So and so can I get you a bottle of water, I don’t care if you make $10,000 a year, if you’re making 90,000 or 120 $150,000 a year, I don’t think that there has to be exclusion or segmentation in and valuing you as a human being. And for me, I don’t differentiate. That’s just not how I operate. titles don’t impress me, wealth, really impressed me how you treat people is the best way to come into my space and into my circle. Because otherwise, I just that makes me very uncomfortable for people who can be one financial shock away one job loss away 1x, y and z away and not realize that they could easily be in a similar position. And it would want someone to see them with dignity, and understand what they’ve done and the contributions they’ve made. Not I don’t care what you’ve done, this is where you are, and we’re going to treat you a certain way. And when you’ve done what we’ve done, Doctor says, we’ve seen people who’ve been up that are now who are themselves out and it’s very difficult. And when you see it the way that we see it. I just don’t know how you can embrace this work with humility, and not engage in with an empathetic and compassionate ones.
Dr. Sev
Yes, I totally agree. And, you know, I want you to ask the question, why is this work important to you? And I think we’ve already covered some of that more to because we’re going to lead to the book as to what compelled you to write the book. But before we do that, tell us some more about why this work is so very important to you.
Dr. Thomas
Yeah, I know what it feels like to not be seen. Yes. Right. And so one of the one of the earliest lessons that I learned in life And you hear it a lot now, which is nobody’s coming to save you, quite honestly, I grew up in Gary, Indiana. At the time that I was growing up in Gary, Indiana, it was the murder capital of the United States, I was eighth grade ninth grade, and going into high school and you know, hearing about friends dying and losing their lives and and things of that nature. And being in a space that if I left, Gary, and people would ask, so where are y’all from your gear you from Gary, people would look at you suspiciously. And you’re you’re not seeing and then when you’re saying the worst is assumed of you, I know what that feels like. So my thought process has always been is that I’m not going to wait for somebody to come save me, I’m not going to wait for somebody to come serve my community. I can’t expect someone to love me. More than I love myself.
Dr. Sev
Yeah. And so. And we just say that, again, I can’t
Dr. Thomas
believe that, because they don’t have the capacity to love me the way that I love or recognize that I can to love me. And so learning that very early on, just kind of put me in a mindset where yeah, they’re going to be life is going to be unfair. And, you know, unpack some of that stuff in the book, because I didn’t want for anybody to think that oh, he’s Dr. Thomas, and he’s never experienced anything? Well, I want to speak to the contrary on that. But I’m not going to say that just because I’ve experienced something similar to you, that you should be where I am either, because I’m very keenly aware that timing, a little bit of luck, a little bit of nudging the right support at the right time, when I was ready to give up and call it quits, if I didn’t have that person to call, I wouldn’t be here. If I didn’t have that personnel, you know, I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t have that person to say, Hey, I see something in you, let me pull you even though you’re fighting against what this may be, I wouldn’t be here. Right. So I know that me being here is an in and of myself. And that there are a lot of factors in play that I’m here. And I’m grateful to have this space, but honestly, and a person of faith, but I give God all the glory, in that regard. Through all the obstacles through all the ups and the downs that I’m in a space now. And I don’t take it for granted. But I enjoy this work because I just want people who don’t, I don’t want to get emotional. I want people who don’t feel seen. To feel seen. Yeah. And to and to know that you should feel seen. You should, you should, you should never shy away from being bright and sharing your light and trying to be the best version of you. Regardless, regardless of the circumstances and situations, whatever it may be. And even while you’re doing it, maybe other people don’t want to see you as the best version of you. And you’re winning and you’re growing. But be seen anyway. Yeah, and because nobody, nobody is going to do it for if I speak to the black for the black community, like nobody can do that. For us. That’s something that we have to own for ourselves, regardless of and I know that’s hard, contextually, but cover these things, we can acknowledge it right, we can wrestle with these nuances of history. But even in the midst of that, I can’t expect for another community to love me before I love myself. If that’s the case, there’s no freedom there. Because my perception of self is externalized in such a way that is always dependent upon someone else. Yeah. So I’ve had to I’ve had to adopt a mindset where I have to be resilient and confident in me and my god given abilities, and then lean into that as best as I can. But a lot of the work that I want to do is just help people be seen and be seen in an authentic light, especially in a research in the literature, because I see a lot of things that are written in terms of describing why people are where they are. And when we talk about women and minorities specifically, where you generally see lower levels of financial literacy. Well, then my question is, what what are we using to define financial literacy? I don’t assume anybody that I’m speaking to is financially illiterate. They have financial literacy. They’ve been taught how to survive, how to hustle, how to grind, how to do whatever they need to do within the context of that situation, to be able to survive and even thrive in situations that we wouldn’t consider financial literacy, but it was absolutely needed for where they are. Yes, because they don’t understand something about consumer pricing index some inflation, right. Yeah. Doesn’t mean that they’re illiterate, right. So I need to understand where you are, what have you learned, so that then I can and say, Man, that’s amazing, that’s powerful. And for where you are that works. Now, if you’re trying to go here, now we need to acquire some new tools. I never dismissed the tools that people have. Because if you’re middle class, and you become impoverished, you can’t use middle class tools to thrive in poverty, it doesn’t work that way. Right? So it’s understanding socio economic, social codes and dynamics, and how we’re using different tools in different spaces to thrive or survive, or whatever it may be. And I’m keenly aware of that. And I just, I just like for people to be seen, without shame without judgment. Yeah, you could have made mistakes, you you already feel bad about it. I don’t need to rub that in. Right. The question is, is, how would you like to move forward? Right, like you mentioned earlier? And how can I partner with you, because I value you, and your capacity to do this, right. And I think that’s a beautiful thing, because it speaks life into people. And then once we get that life element of it, then the money stuff will take care of itself, but it records moving and feeling that they’re worthy of the thing that they’re striving for. Right? Sometimes that feeling of lack of worthiness can be so overwhelming that even as I’m making sure we
Dr. Sev
a big inhibitor,
Dr. Thomas
right? I need to know or understand that, right? Because otherwise, is we’re going to engage in self sabotage. And then we’re starting right back to where we are. So there’s so much nuance and context within the work that we do. And I just, I just love that integration of life and family systems and notions of agency and other external factors beyond family systems, in terms of your community, politics, different types of laws in your state, or laws that don’t protect you against predators, or whatever it may be now need to be thinking about, Well, how am I advocating for the people that I’m serving? Because how does it benefit anybody? If as soon as I teach you one thing, there’s something else as rolling down the hill. And usually it gets down the hill first, then we recognize it’s an issue, then we got to retool people up. Well, what I’ve realized is that after I have to be able to teach people, and I have to advocate for the people that I serve. And if I have access to the politicians, to the mayor, to local organization, so people in state, like I need to be speaking on behalf and saying that, hey, this is how this is going to impact the community. And I don’t want to wait until it happens before we address it. Because if that happens, now we’ve set them back a year and a half. They don’t We don’t have time. Right. And so yeah, some people don’t want to hear me.
Dr. Sev
You know, but that’s why the accredited financial counselor, certification is so important. But even more important than the certification is to make sure the right people are getting the certification. Okay. And I know this is probably not something that’s very popular to be sad in the finance community, because not everybody who gets the certification is using it or is understanding the client enough to understand that the client needs to be seen. It’s not about saying it’s not about the certification. You know, I could go on and on. But I really, I really want to get to the book, because I have lots of thoughts. I have lots of thoughts about this, having been exposed to this world of personal finance, because for the first 20 years, I taught personal finance in my church. So it was in an insulated environment. And until Saundra, Davis introduced me to a love song. We asked, she’s awesome, she introduced me to fcpe. And then I start learning about all these different communities. But some of the things I don’t like what I’m seeing in some of the communities, but that’s another thing and another time. So let’s talk about, let’s talk about the book. So we’re talking about black financial culture, building wealth from the inside out. This is a book written by Dr. Thomas. And there are some things that I want to pull out of the book, I’m not going to share too much because I want you to go buy this book, and really dive into it and take your time and go through it and absorb the information and the different themes that Dr. Thomas has pulled out in this book. So What compelled you to write this book? We shared some of it before but What compelled you why this book?
Dr. Thomas
Yeah. So one of the reasons why I pursued my PhD was because I wanted to learn what was happening internally and academia, in social sciences and research and all that good stuff. Because again, none of that ever really trickles down to where I’m from. Right. I’ve never I’ve never had a conversation around the dinner table. Did you see that latest research on Like households and home ownership and how this has happened or like we’ve come over now really, really is never is never ever in any situation is anything that’s happened in academia ever trickled down to the household level ever.
Dr. Sev
Yeah, dry dry.
Dr. Thomas
I love academia. I love academia, because it gives you the space and the resources to explore these questions to do research. But I also know that I also knew that if I would have focused on the research, initially, I would have just stayed in that bubble, right, because it’s one paper after another revision, and so on and so forth for you get anything published. And I wouldn’t have had the time to really focus on this, because this is why I got my PhD. So what I wanted to do was the first work that I published after getting my PhD to honor my commitment to why I was doing us was to produce a body of work that was authentic and true to my experiences, but then also took a lot of what we’re seeing in academia, both in the past in the present, and what’s coming and speak to these things in a way, where I’m not talking about Herbert Simon, and bounded rationality, like, I’m not gonna have like, a page and a half talking about that, because my mom doesn’t want to read that, right? I’m not nobody. I’m just gonna be honest, I’m not going to have two pages talking about Prospect Theory, and Kahneman and Tversky, my mom doesn’t want to read that, I’m not going to be talking about systems theory, or person centered therapy, or cognitive behavior therapy, or solution focus, or transfer, theoretical change model of change, I’m not going to talk about those things, all of those things, the nuances of those things are actually in this book, but I never speak to them directly, you never know that you’re reading the most latest informed thoughts as relates to research, because I referenced a Biggie Smalls right before I dropped the gym. Right? I represent, I will reference one of my favorite movies paid in full twice in his book, before I dropped the gym. Right. And that’s the contents of it, because that’s the thread. And I’m still communicating the point. But I don’t have to be high level academic, for you to get the message. Because even people in academia, generally speaking, struggle with getting through papers, because it can be so high level, so heavy, and you’re trying to figure out the jargon before you get to the methods and understand the the outcomes of whatever just transpired. But I just wanted to produce something that’s very academic, but so unconventional, and does not seem to be academic at all. But you’re getting everything that we’re talking about in the spaces that I navigate. And not only that, you’re getting information from someone who’s actually been intentional about helping to relieve a movement of like, for instance, when I did my financial empathy, TED talk, we weren’t really having major conversations around empathy, and financial services face. Shame was the predominant thing that we were using in financial services. Now, fast forward, it’s 2023. All you’re hearing now is about the human side of money, and empathy. Do you know we prior to me giving that talk, I presented that idea to individuals and financial people in the space and one after the other. They told me I don’t understand why that’s important. So the reason why I wrote this book was because again, I can’t wait for somebody to love my vision. Just like I can’t wait for somebody to love me. I can’t wait for somebody to get what I feel like I’m compelled and called to do the right. So I can’t wait for people anymore, because we’re losing time. So I wanted to produce some work where I’m like, you know, I’m not going through the traditional gatekeepers, because they’ve proven to me over and over and over again, that they don’t see the vision. Right, in terms of where I clearly see we’re headed as an industry, but they only see it when it becomes popular. And I’m not waiting for popularity, to try to drive something. I don’t even care if I’m popular, quite honestly. But I’m going to
Dr. Sev
drop in some stuff, okay, I’m gonna
Dr. Thomas
be consistent. And I’m going to drive my vision. This is me honoring my convictions and that whole idea of waiting on a gatekeeper to tell me that something’s okay for to be okay. I’m not doing it anymore. I’ve spent too much of my life doing that only for either people to take my ideas that they said weren’t good ideas. Right? And so, no, I know, I’m owning my own journey. I’m writing this book. I don’t care how other people perceive it, because if you read it, you will pick up on the spirit of where I’m coming from. And I don’t think that anybody whether you’re black, white, black next, or whatever it may be, because this book is really for everybody. Even though it’s black financial culture, I just don’t understand And why would it be difficult to want to explore things of black financial culture, and understanding how this is a connective tissue of understanding the fabric of society, this is so American to me to be able to have this conversation and speak to blackness, but it not the other, but a part of. So I didn’t even shy away from the book title, because I know what triggers some people, but that’s a vim thing. That’s not a new thing. And so for me doing this, this is, this is me stepping out, and basically saying that I know who I am, I know the value that I bring in this space. And I’m going to be unapologetic about it. But I’m also going to be tactful, in a way that I communicate the things that I communicate, and I’m going to be proud of me and not be looking for other people to give me praise. I’m just, I’m just happy that I stuck to my convictions. And I wrote this for the people that I feel that needs to be seen. And again, this is just for black people. Because if you come from a background like I come from, and socio economic status wise, I don’t care what community you’re in around the world, we see the same themes. We see the same themes. Yeah. So this is a unifying book, and not a book to divide people. But you got to get past your own biases. And my hope is that somebody looks at this and notices their bias, and it triggers them. But then they read it. And you say why? Why was that triggered to begin with? That’s powerful to me. And so I hope that that happens a lot from individuals who would look at this and say, Well, what can I actually you can get a lot of my name is Dr. Thomas. I do sir, to this face, I do do research in this space. And I’m just as credible as anyone else in this space. And so I know that and but I just wanted to provide something that was a little bit more authentic, a little bit more raw, a little bit more vulnerable, because I wanted to write something that we generally don’t see when it comes to personal finances. And I think that I achieved that with this book. This is very unconventional. So just learn from people in terms of what you’re going to get, because we haven’t seen this book before in this because
Dr. Sev
carbon copies of them other chapters.
Dr. Thomas
Don’t talk about credit cards. Yeah.
Dr. Sev
That’s something you said, it’s not just for black people. I am working with a volunteer and several organizations. And one of the ladies said something that really pierced my heart. We were doing a feedback for you know, just the the not for the coaches or anybody, just the participants. And one of the ladies, a black lady, she said, one of the reasons she’s happy she signed up is because she was under the impression that only black people at financial issues. Because he saw she saw all different races in the group that’s coming to get help. An awful that pierced my heart because society, movies, news News, the news, all of it makes, it seems like only the black community has financial problems. And when she said that I had to go, you know, I broke it down. And I not did not just say, Oh, I’m glad you’re sure that I broke down. And she told her one of the reasons why she may have that perception, and the things that she now needs to go out and share with her community and help educate them. Because it’s not just a black thing. It’s so many communities that are having issues. So we’re listening to us right now, or you’re watching on YouTube, or you’re listening on any of the podcast platforms. Understand that not only the black community has issues when it comes to personal finance, it’s everywhere. We are we are shaped by society, we are shaped by the things we read, we are thick shaped by the messages we hear, we are shaped by what we read, in, in the newspaper, on the TV, what we hear, we are shaped by all these things, and we take in those messages by our family members, we take in those messages. And that helps to inform the way we look at money and it’s not isolated to the black community. Okay. On and on about this stuff, because you’re just so this is so good.
Dr. Thomas
There’s a there’s a line in the book, right. And so that kind of speaks to the sphere that is and I mentioned, if if financial fragility was purely a black thing, there is no way Dave Ramsey built a multi million Empire because this multimillion Empire was based on white eventually Ella Coles, where we’re focusing on budgeting, getting out of debt, making sure that you have the appropriate life insurance. And then once you as you work through your baby steps, then you get to potentially investing, it’s the you get zero, there’s no if it was only a black thing, there’s no way that Dave Ramsey could be Dave Ramsey, it just, it just doesn’t work. And so that particular part of the book is born out of me just pulling my friends and getting their perceptions about what they identify with this black financial culture. And many of the same sentiments were expressed Dr. Set that you express. And because you and I work in this space, right, we get to see how we get to serve so many people across different ethnicities, and so on and so forth. And it’s beautiful, because we get to help them to realize their their visions, or hopes and their dreams. But it’s not just again, to your point, it’s not one community. But that’s the issue when you feel like it’s just you. Right, it’s very difficult to want to step out. It’s no different than if you’re in a class, and it doesn’t look and you’re looking around, and I’m teaching, and every day, you’re seeing all the peers in your class, and they’re nodding their head, like they understand what I’m talking about. They’re
Dr. Sev
right there in their writing notes.
Dr. Thomas
Like they know what I’m talking about. And you’re like, I don’t know what he’s talking about. But everybody else looks like he knows what he’s talking about. But I’m not going to ask for help. Because I think that everybody else has it together. But what they don’t know is that those students who were looking like they were doing, they came, they found me, either walking down the street, they came to my office hours in private, they sent me a message they did XY and Z. And they were like, Hey, Dr. Thomas, I have no idea what you’re talking about, can you can you schedule some time so that we can meet? I may need to meet more than once. But because they because they present themselves? Right? You are kinda like, I don’t know how to present myself, like I know something when I don’t know it, because my face is gonna look, I’ll fill it. It’s hard to navigate those spaces because you feel like you’re the only one. And if I feel like they only want if I feel like, I’m the only one if I raise my hand that induces feelings of shame. And shame causes us to hide. Right. And it’s, and that’s what happens, we start hiding. And if we start hiding, we never deal with the issue. Because I feel like everyone else has it together. And now I’m exposing myself. But what most people don’t realize is that the vast majority of people don’t really have it together. Like do you think there’s nothing wrong with that? Yeah, the beauty is that they’ve acknowledged it. And now I can start where I am and start building something. But if you never acknowledged it, generally what we do is we want to start where we wish we were. And then we get frustrated, because we didn’t develop the tools and a capacity to actually respond and move in this space. Because we didn’t develop the tools here. And then we get stuck. We get frustrated, and we don’t achieve the goals that we hoped for. So having vulnerability, knowing that you’re not alone. I think it’s so incredibly important, because then how else do you go through the process of asking for help? I’ve asked for help. Doctor says, I know that you’ve asked for help on multiple occasions, there is actually strength in doing that. Because it’s not about ego. It’s about the ego.
Dr. Sev
Yeah, the hardest thing to do is to say help. It’s hard to do. But it’s so beneficial. There’s so many people that are just waiting to help if
Dr. Thomas
you’re not in the right space, when you’re in the right space. And you know that that person so doctor said like when you’re working with somebody, and they and they see and they know in your spirit that you see the good in them regardless of what they’ve done. them asking for help. There’s there’s nothing connected to anymore because I know that there’s no shame, guilt or judgment that comes with this. And I can literally asked to not feel any type of way. And I can grow as an individual I can continue to grow in this space. So being able to assess our social capital, the spaces that we’re navigating, and whether or not those spaces are conducive to our growth is just as much a part of this financial well being process, right because otherwise we don’t have the community to stay in a sustainable growth. So connecting with practitioners things that nature to find the space so there is no guilt or shame around raising my hand is so incredibly powerful, because it doesn’t have
Dr. Sev
to be. It is it really is. Because with my story, the people who listen and watch they know my story that at 53 I filed for divorce and had to rebuild my finance But if I didn’t ask for help, even though I’d been teaching personal finance for over 20 something years at my church, I still it’s only a fool has a lawyer for its own lawyer or something. I went and I hired somebody to help me, because I can see my numbers, but I’m seeing them emotionally. But this person is not going to see the emotion in the numbers, they’re going to see the numbers, and they’re going to be able to take, you know, weeding the forest from the trees. Every course I’m gonna speak. But for me, I’m looking at my numbers with all the emotion and everything wrapped up in it. And so there’s no no shame in asking somebody for help to say, hey, I need help. Because especially I did an episode several weeks ago, before I shut down the podcast for season three. And one of the things I talked about is, some of us who are in great position, we have the we’re making the six figures, or we have the titles, the doctors and the, and the lawyers and the medical doctors and all of those. And expectation is we’re making a lot of money. But then a lot of times we may have a lot of debt because of student loans and other things. And we give this impression that things are so well with us. And we don’t want to ask for help and our family come to us and we’re giving money that we don’t have. And it’s nothing wrong with saying, you know why? I’m in this position. And I’m supposed to know it all? Well, none of us are supposed to know it all. As opposed to No, this, I’m supposed to be here. But I’m not there. I need help. There’s nothing wrong with that. That’s the best thing any of us could ever do for ourselves, is asking for help. Acknowledging that we’re in a place financially, that is uncomfortable. And it’s okay. Because we all have been there are we’re there, or we’re going to be there. So anyway,
Dr. Thomas
doctor, so and this was a quick aside, I that’s that’s the element, because I firmly believe that served people serve people, right. And as we think about artificial intelligence, and all these other different things that kind of come into play. I don’t think that we’ve addressed this yet. But the reason why someone may want to go to chat GBT, as opposed to going to another human being is fear of
Dr. Sev
judgment. Yeah, yes.
Dr. Thomas
Because and because as human beings, we’ve created a space where being gracious and kind and authentically human, on the positive side to individuals is not even expected anymore. Why wouldn’t artificial intelligence continue to have more prominence because if I can’t even get a human experience from a human, where I feel like I’m leaving, I’m leaving this conversation, they actually use my name. Like I do that I modeled this with my boys and my family. Whenever we go to a grocery store, or we dine out, I am carrying in on the name of that person’s badge. And I’m using their name from the time we start the conversation, to the time that we end the conversation, because I want to do everything that I can to be a person that’s going to dignify them if they haven’t been dignified, and we watch throughout this day. And so when we when we talk about these things and creating spaces, why wouldn’t artificial intelligence take hold? If what I’m really seeking as a human experience, but AI is actually being more compassionate and more kind, then I would get from someone who that otherwise would want to experience that from. And I really feel as if if we can master this notion of service, and really prioritize this as a skill set and a highly sought after thing. I think that we for those of you who are navigating spaces right now, I really want to challenge you into leaning into being outstanding as relates to the service that you provide, because that is going to be the competitive advantage as we navigate spaces where artificial intelligence could do all the calculations. There’s actually AI right now that can read an entire legal document in contract and pull out anything in there that can be kind of suspect that we may want to change the language on like that can actually be automated now. But being able to communicate with a client who is struggling, who was overwhelmed, who was fearful, who doesn’t see a way out, and they can feel as if they can trust in you and dignified in this relationship. That is the skill set within the next five or 10 years. I promise you if you’re working anywhere right now being a person who is that person and also be tooling up resources, things that are covered in terms of using technology. You will separate your So from 80% of people in his world, just by being kind,
Dr. Sev
yes, yeah, I Oh my God, there’s so much there’s so much. But I want to go into whenever I read through the book, there are themes of trauma, empathy, wealth, creation legacy, there were just so many other themes. And what my takeaway from the whole book is wholeness. That’s the message. I got wholeness. So, is there anything that you’d like to add as a takeaway, that’s for somebody reading the book that they can have as a takeaway. And before we close, I am going to do a giveaway of a copy of Dr. Thomas’s book, to a lucky person. So just stick around, we’re going to be doing a giveaway. But yes, just to kind of share with us, what are some of the things that you want them to take away? And then I’m going to wrap it up with having you share with me the inspiration for the book cover? And then a couple of quotes from the book.
Dr. Thomas
Sounds good. Sounds good. So this is the beautiful thing about this book, is that, have you ever heard somebody say that, hey, like when somebody sprays cologne on them, it basically kind of mixes with their own natural fragrance, and it kind of produces his own thing. That’s kind of how I want this book to be, I don’t want this book to be that this is what I want you to get out of it. I want this book to be whatever it is for you in this season of your life. And I can almost guarantee you that if you read this book in your 20s, you’re going to see it differently than when you read 25. Then when you’re 30, then when you’re 35, and in one year 40. And then if you’re 50, you’re going to see things very differently in this book. And so my thing is, the only thing that I ask is for individuals to allow themselves to engage in an experience, where they get to actually not just sit with the book, but also sit by himself. And so and not to rush through it and just say, Oh, I read another book, and it’s a great book, and then move on to the next thing. No, no, no, no, I would actually encourage that, after you’ve read it once, give yourself some space, allow some of the themes to kind of resonate with you, and then come back to it a second time to reread it. And whatever you need to get out of this in this season of your life, you’ll get out of it. If there’s nothing that you’ve gotten out of it, well, there’s nothing that you’ve gotten out of it. And that’s perfectly okay. But I really this book is about you, I even on a title, I didn’t put Dr. Michael Thomas AFC or what because I don’t want that element. I don’t want this to be about me, right, I only have my name on the front, it’s because I need to have my name on the front. I want this to be where somebody just says, you know, I want to, I really want to step back, and just go on a little bit of a journey with self as it relates to exploring these dynamics that are within his book, and to see how it resonates with me and how I could potentially grow from it. If that’s how you approach it, that’s my only ask the purposes book is not to tell people what to do. Yeah, not to I didn’t even define black financial culture in this book. Because that’s for you to define. I think that that’s what freedom is. The question, though is, are you actually defining it for yourself now? Or are you just doing and not actually being aware of what I’m doing. And so the whole idea of this is to open you up to create some awareness of self. And then for you to have the space to say I choose to do something different. And I celebrate you on that. And even if you choose not to do something, I celebrate you on that. Because you are expressing agency. And when the time is right agencies and this right, I know that you will move, you just might not. I’ve been in spaces where I was like, I know what I need to do. But I want to sit where I am right now. Because I’m mad, I’m upset, I’m frustrated. I don’t want to move. I’ve been there. So not moving and moving. Both of those are choices, right? And as long as you’re making the choice, and you’re aware of this choice that you’re making, I feel like you’re going to be alright. Because you’re internalizing through thinking through you’re expressing agency. And when the timing is right. When you’re ready to move, you’re going to do amazing things, right. So it’s not for me to define what that is. I’m not telling people, this is what you need to do this. I’m providing you some roadmaps of things if you want to come back to it, but it’s your choice. That’s freedom.
Dr. Sev
Yeah, it certainly is. I love that the agency you know, taking you have agency over your choice in the real life. Now, let’s talk a little bit about the the inspiration for the book cover.
Dr. Thomas
Absolutely. So the big part of this book is the heart that Part is based on Eastern culture, Japanese culture, which is something called Kintsugi, which is golden repair. And so this idea has been sitting with me for a very, very long time. And it actually provides the foundation of the book. Even though excuse me, I don’t talk about Kintsugi directly in the book. But what golden repair is, is that in in Japan, if somebody breaks a loss, right, generally, if somebody were to repair that cause, the idea is to repair it to where you don’t see the broken pieces, or the blemishes, and it’s restored to its natural state, as if there was never any cracks, there was never any brokenness in Japanese culture, what they do is that they highlight the cracks. And they piece it together. Because their thought process is that it’s because of the cracks, that this piece is more beautiful, and elegant and refined than it was in its previous state. And so me writing this book, as you’ll dive into it, is actually me exposing my cracks. But knowing that I’m refined by those things, and not defined by those things, I love it. And it’s and it’s and it’s okay to heal, but then also know that we’re going to have some some wounds from what we’ve done. And we don’t have to shy away from those things. Because it that healing, and that manifestation of there’s nothing that’s been alive about my life, that’s perfect. But I still carry myself in a way, and then I know that I’m somebody, I still have worth and value, I don’t have to be blemish, this perfection is not required. And so that’s really that bigger theme there. And why have the heart and a consumer design, because there’s a lot of brokenness, I say this all the time. It’s easy to fix broke, brokenness takes an entirely different tool. So broke is easy to fix. Brokenness is something different altogether. And what happens is that oftentimes, we’re dealing with brokenness, and we’re trying to use our toolset to address broke. And I want to I wanted to get, I wanted to go there with this book. Because again, I didn’t want to write something that has already been written, there got to be some similar themes that you’re gonna see. But this is a very unconventional take on personal finances. And I wanted it to be that because I’m not the type of person to just want to just do the same thing that other people have done. I’m just going to point you in that direction. I’m like, yo, you need to go read this book. Right? You didn’t go read this. But this is altogether different. And I think it’s going to resonate with with individuals who have very similar lived experiences that I’ve had.
Dr. Sev
Yeah, I love what you said about we use the tools for it to fix broke, but really, we need to be fixing the broken nests. Yeah, yeah. It takes a process. It’s gonna take some time. Yeah, the broken necks. But we’re using the wrong tool to apply or we’re using the right tool, but we’re applying it to the wrong
Dr. Thomas
situation.
Dr. Sev
Know, wow. I mean, we could we could talk for hours. But anyway, this is good stuff. Okay. So every chapter starts with a quote. And I’m just going to pull out two that we’re going to jump into for the interest of time. Number one, my favorite is money without wisdom is a liability. And that is the beginning of chapter one. Money without wisdom is a liability. It kind of speaks for itself, but give us a little bit more Dr. Thomas. Yeah. So
Dr. Thomas
that’s, that’s a repackaging of Ecclesiastes 711 and 12. Money and wisdom can get you almost anything in life, but wisdom is the only thing that can save your life. And personally, what I feel is that we live in a culture in a capitalistic society that sells us to the idea that if we have more.
Dr. Thomas
stuff, more money, more accomplishment, more X Y & Z that we’re going to be hold the wisdom. And that is that that’s not true. Unfortunately, that’s why you have people who are making $500,000 a year and still can’t make ends meet. That’s why you have people who are multimillionaires who are contemplating the value of their life, because the money didn’t actually fill the void. Money doesn’t have the capacity to love you. Money can provide you access, how you manage your money is going to define whether or not you have freedom, there is no direct correlation between money and freedom, because you’re still in the midst of that. So if you have money, and you don’t have wisdom, you don’t have freedom, I want to be very clear here. And we work with I work with people who make a considerable amount of money, and still feel bounded. And if it’s not enough, and it’s never enough, there’s no end to more. So when we have wisdom, it actually helps us define actually, the better question is what is enough? And actually considering on that thought process in that line of thought, and if I want more, what’s actually driving my need for that? Is it I need the validation of others? Is it some insecurity? Is it that I grew up in a household that dealt with very severe poverty, and I actually shrug will, with feeling safe and secure, even now that I have this wealth. And you see this with individuals because that inner child is still a part of who they are. And I was working with a client who had what 36 2.5 million in a bank was still anxious, high anxiety, incredibly fearful, and just could not settle. Still very nervous about what’s to come. Like this is the reality of what we see when we do our work that most people don’t get to. Now, I’m not saying that money is bad, and it can’t be helpful. But what I’m saying is that if you’re putting all of your hope in money, it’s
Dr. Sev
yes, yes. Yes. Every time. Yeah, that’s a key point. Because there’s so many people think if I just had more money, I had just if I just had more money. Without that wisdom, that money doesn’t bring you what you think it’s going to bring you.
Dr. Thomas
Money is important. But wisdom is equally important. So the two together, is what actually creates to win. So the question now is, as I’m earning more money, am I also equally totaling up in terms of my mindset, my emotional state, because more money may trigger us in ways that we never thought it would, because it provides us access to things that we never had access to. And it could actually cause us to behave in ways that we never thought that was even possible. So very important to have self awareness and to actually to tool up and to never be hesitant, even with more money to be very intentional about Alright, how can I be wise with these resources? I’ve never seen that. I’ve never seen a meme or a post from anyone who just got the bag. And the first thing that they posted was, you know what, before I do anything, I want to be more wise. You will never seen and I promise you we will be in a much better place is that after every raise every this every windfall, that people just slow down and said how can I be wise with these resources doesn’t mean that you can’t have doesn’t mean just can’t take the trip can’t mean that you can’t do these things, right? It’s how you navigate it. In order to make more money, more problems, you have to know how to manage it. The beautiful thing is that managing money is a habit. And it’s how we develop, inform and inform the appropriate habit. Because literally, if I’m investing guess what investing then becomes a habit regardless of how much money I have. If I’m investing 10%, consistently of my $1,000 that I make every week or every two weeks, then I can easily develop the habit and that habit could translate over to more. So I’m more concerned about the habits that individuals are forming. It has it or as it surrounds or relates to money, and how do we help them develop the appropriate habits. So regardless of how much money I have, I have a habit that is going to serve me well. Regardless, irregardless of the amount.
Dr. Sev
Yeah, yeah, yeah, love it. Now, it’s so hard to really pull out because as I said, at the beginning of every chapter, there’s a quote, and it was hard for me to see which ones I want to use in this episode, but I just use this other one. And it’s abundance is a decision before it ever becomes a position
Dr. Thomas
that quote is, is rooted in just a mindset, quite honestly. Because if I have to wait for someone to treat me with kindness before I treat them with kindness, when do I ever start treating people with kindness. If I have to wait for something to happen to me before I do it to someone else, than when does it ever actually becomes now what happens is that I’m externalizing the way that I engage with the world around me. And if I’m, if I’m constantly externalizing things that that means that the water around me is ultimately dictating my emotional state and how I respond. But I can with having very little respond and engage in life from an abundance mindset, not have that of lack or scarcity, where when we start to focus there, everything becomes very small. And everything’s just about I mean, because there can be some very real consequences between not having. But what happens is that regardless of our circumstances, we choose to give of our time still generously. I may not have the money. But let’s say that I give up my time generously, abundantly in that way, maybe I don’t have money. But what if I give affection? Generously? Right? What if I give kindness? Generously? What if I do these things? What if I choose to, to say that, you know, this is who I am? This is my brand. And that’s really what I’m getting at? It’s like, what do you want your brand to be? We always talk about this stuff like brand, like, and so we don’t have any issue with that paradigm. Doing. We don’t, we don’t, because we talked about brands all the time, and people will straight switch it up and say, You know what, alright, I’m in music. And I’m doing this and I need to create my brand, I need to assume a new identity. Because I want to be known for said thing. And then people do it, they follow suit, they change, they change their identity, they start communicating differently, they start dressing differently, they be they be it before they become it, right? No different than in Michelle Obama’s book that’s on my delight we carry on my desk, where she talks about data being before you become right, because you have to be it before you become it. So if I want to be abundant, I have to actually start engaging in a way that is abundance of self, where I have the capacity to give abundantly and then gradually build momentum from there. So if I engage abundantly in terms of generous of my time, that that means that maybe I serve someone that because I’m being generous of my time, and I have a good attitude and spirit that this person is like yo, this person is amazing. Like, where do you get this person? Right? Because I’ve always worked in spaces where we didn’t wait for somebody to submit an application. If we were out in the community, if we were dining somewhere, if we were engaging with somebody, and they demonstrated characteristics and skills and things that nature that would suit our organization, my VPN, I would actually go and have a conversation with that person and say, hey, you know what, we have XYZ coming up. I’d love for you to submit application. And that happens a lot more than people think. Because generally speaking. So for instance, for those of you who are listening right now, in your communities, there’s probably been some type of major service project that’s been done in your community. Did you get up on Saturday morning and go? Do you know why you should have been there? Because the people who are sponsoring that event are generally the people who are there. So you’re working with you’re you’re you’re serving with the board members, you’re serving with people who own businesses in the community, who sit on the Chamber of Commerce, who do all these different things, that then presents an opportunity to say that, hey, oh, can I follow you on LinkedIn? Or can I follow you on social media? And next thing, you know, we’re having coffee. And the next thing you know, our member, you had said that you were interested in that a buddy of mine has this opening up, and I’m interested in you engaging in the process. But if you’re not operating in abundance, and your mindset is solely stuck in scarcity, then you’re going to say, Why would I go serve someone else when I need to be served?
Dr. Sev
Yeah, but through serving
Dr. Thomas
other people, especially in the right systems, which are going to find such you’re going to align yourself with like minded individuals who are also going to want to serve you. Alright, so that’s what I mean by that. That positioning of mindset, you gotta You got it. You have to you have to speak it, and see it and start acting on it before you be it and ultimately experienced, because otherwise, it’s just not going to happen in a way that you want. And if you get small, you’re not seeing you’re not visible. And then what happens is that we create a system that prevents our success, and we can’t even see it.
Dr. Sev
Yes, man. There’s just so much that you’ve shared today, Dr. Thomas, and I really wanted to dive even deeper in some of them, some of them but I think we’ll probably be here, another three or four hours. For sure. even like, you know, thank you again for sharing with the doctor sab talks money community. And we certainly appreciate you giving up all your time.
Dr. Thomas
Doctor Sev can I? Can I speak to something really quickly rental something serve without expectation?I think that we need to unpack that a little bit. And the reason why I mean this is that there is no reason there’s nothing wrong with engaging in a process to get something out of that if that is your goal. Right? What happens though, is that people say this, but they don’t mean it. They say, Oh, I’m going to serve without the expectation, but they really want reciprocity. So if you want reciprocity and what you’re doing just own that you desire reciprocity, and don’t say that I’m going to serve without expectation. Because if you have an expectation, and you know that you wanting to get something out of it, just bid just be very clear and upfront, right, I’m here serving the community. And, you know, I just thought this would be a great time that’s mutually beneficial, serve the community and also meet with some excellent people here that could potentially propel my career, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. If you’re designing reciprocity with what you’re doing, own it, communicate it and make it known and not for it to be some underlying agenda. Don’t say that I’m going to serve without expecting, but you don’t really feel that way. Because you don’t want to accept that you are really wanting to get something out of it. There is nothing wrong with that every circle that I navigate. People always making asks, people are always trying to say, Can I partner with you on this or do it and they’re very clear and upset they’re serving, but they’re here for a reason to, and that’s okay. And I don’t ever want anybody to feel shame or guilt for wanting to ask for something that they need to get to the next level. Because everybody that I work with in the spaces that I navigate are constantly making asks whether it’s for a million dollars for this project, or can you come and you check this out? And can you do it at a discount for me, right? Like that’s how the system works. That’s why community is so important. Nobody does this alone. And don’t be afraid to make the ask.
